Watch: Most powerful debate between Abdel Rahim Ali and former president of al-Azhar University

Debate broadcast on al-Jazeera channel as part of 'Opposite Direction' programme

Date: December 9, 2004

Attack on Islamic figures

Distortion of Islam between extremism and the claim of freedom

Sharia between ijtihad and the sword of atonement

The thought of reform, renewal and Western intervention

Diligence and the possibility of right and wrong

Western interference and distortion of symbols

The neo-liberals and the campaign against Islam

Islam and support for freedom of expression

Faisal Al-Qasim: Greetings, dear viewers, why is this unprecedented attack in some Arab media on symbols, personalities, and even some religious sanctities happening? Why do some people try to insult Islamic history under false claims, under the pretext of sifting the sanctities? Is not what some writers do of distorting Islamic symbols and defaming their constants an integral part of the ferocious American campaign against curricula and beliefs? Someone wonders why some Arab writers have begun to imitate American extremists, such as US Assistant Secretary of Defence (William Gerald) Boykin, who attacked the Islamic religion and its sanctities and called it offensive traits? Do some preachers and sheikhs deserve this unjust campaign by the so-called neo-liberal Arabs who incite Western circles against their compatriots under the pretext of fighting terrorism? Why are these suspicious, paid and vile liberal statements, as some describe them, made against the distinguished scholars and jurists? Are not scholars the inheritors of prophets?

Why this blatant challenge for some companions (of the prophet)? How is it permissible for those who write TV series about Samasem and other dancers to harm the heroes of Islamic history and the companions (of the prophet)? One wonders why some electronic dumps, as someone calls them, have become a breeding ground for this disgusting chirping? Isn't our heritage and our religion in need of sifting? Why is it that whenever some writers try to express another opinion about some Islamic symbols and personalities, they are immediately accused of heresy and blasphemy? Why do some people try to play the role of the hasib, filing lawsuits against intellectuals and thinkers, and practicing abhorrent intellectual terrorism against them? Isn't it time to confront the clergy which surrounds itself with an aura of sanctity?

Are there sanctities in Islam at all? Someone wonders, isn't liberating our mind from myths, sacred texts and myths an indispensable prelude to our exit from the tunnel of backwardness? These are all questions that I ask live on the air to Professor Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh, former president of Al-Azhar University and a member of the Islamic Research Academy, author of many books, including the consensus and its authority in Islamic law and the book on the history of Islamic legislation, as well as to Professor Abdel Rahim Ali, director of the Arab Center for Studies of Islam and Democracy, author of the book 'State and Religious Groups in Egypt: A third of a century of violence' and the book 'The Pact of Terror: Al-Qaeda, from Abdullah Azzam to Osama bin Laden'.

We will begin our discussion after this break.

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Distortion of Islam between extremism and the claim of freedom

Faisal Al-Qasim: Welcome again, dear viewers, we are with you live on the 'Opposite Direction' programme. You can vote on the topic of this episode. Do you think there is a campaign to undermine Islamic sanctities? By phone you can vote from inside Qatar from all over the world on 00974-001900. We have two different results over the phone: 98% believe that there is a campaign to undermine Islamic sanctities, while 2% do not believe this. For the internet, the number of voters is more and the result is different. We have 7,024 votes. A total of 86.6% believe that there is a campaign to undermine Islamic sanctities, while 13.4% do not believe this. 

Abdel Rahim Ali, there is a great feeling as you can see through the results and the number of votes. This means very much that there is a campaign. I mean, it becomes clear at more than one level against the sanctities, against Islamic heritage, against Islamic personalities, against the whole Islamic history. What do you say?

"Extremist Islamic currents are the ones that bear the responsibility for distorting Islam through what they are working on of suppressing opinions and concepts that contradict them. They sometimes accuse their opponents of heresy and apostasy." Abdel Rahim Ali

Abdel Rahim Ali, director of the Arab Centre for Islam and Democracy Studies

In the name of God, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful … First of all, I know today that I am swimming against the tide as we have seen and the viewers watched the vote today. Conditions in the Arab region force specifically disaffected people who live in difficult circumstances to vote in such a place, but I will count what I say now with God Almighty, and I hope to meet him on the Day of Resurrection, God willing. First of all, let us look at the opposite side. I mean, I personally see that the campaign came from another direction, meaning who brought down two Islamic states one after another in ten years, Afghanistan and then Iraq? Isn’t Osama bin Laden and Al-Qaeda one and the same thing? Who is all that Islam and Muslims accuse of being terrorists that they do not have freedom of opinion? That Islam suppresses freedom of opinion and belief. We – and we confirm this – launch a campaign against a thinker, against a fictional writer, accusing this of infidelity, even those who used this weapon previously. Dr. Abdul-Sabour Shaheen, when he published his book, was accused of blasphemy as well. So who is responsible for conveying this situation to the West and to the East? Where was the Western campaign during which Sheikh Ali Abdul Razek, the author of 'Islam and the Foundations of Governance' was declared an infidel? Where were these when Amin al-Khouli, Abd al-Muta’al al-Sa’idi, Taha Hussein, Khaled Muhammad Khalid and Sheikh al-Ghazali himself disbelieved when he wrote the famous writing of the Sunnah among the scholars of jurisprudence and the people of hadith. Sheikh al-Qaradawi, who was attacked by extremist Islamists a thousand times more than he was attacked by others because of his fatwa on misyar marriage and the possibility or permissibility of marriage that the Christian woman who converted to Islam should continue to live with her husband to preserve the family.

Abd al-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, she is not under her husband.

Abd al-Rahim Ali [continued]: Under her Christian husband, after her conversion to Islam, it is permissible for her to continue. Islam prevented Muslim youth in universities from circulating this book, and after 20 years, the generosity of asceticism, which filled the land with blood in Egypt for ten years, will appear in confrontation with the state, with the police, and with intellectuals, to say yes, Al-Qaradawi was right. 

Faisal Al-Qasim: Beautiful, in short, you want to say…

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: What do you say, brother Faisal? The other currents are the most that you can do to say that Sheikh so and so is a hardliner. Can you say more than this? He is obstinate, but these people declare these sheikhs to be infidels. Do not Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri call on all the clergy in Saudi Arabia and all the clergy in Egypt to disbelieve Al-Azhar and consider it an agent of the Egyptian government? Do they not disbelieve the Mufti of Saudi Arabia and consider him an agent of the Saudi government? These are the real fifth column. They are not among the half-talented, the half-thinkers, and the half-scholars who have no knowledge but only the name and nothing else.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Very nice, Doctor. I heard this. I mean, it is true that the percentage is overwhelmingly skewed towards you, but the ball, so to speak, is in your court, according to the words of Mr. Abdel Rahim.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh: The claim about the lack of freedom in Islamic law is absolutely rejected because the Messenger of God, may God's prayers and peace be upon him, was consulting his companions and was taking their opinion on important matters. The Messenger taught them democracy before the whole world knew it. The rulers and sultans had their word first, whether it was right or wrong. As for the Messenger, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, he used to debate with his companions. We reach the truth and what Gabriel revealed to show you this truth. The negation of the claim of freedom in Islamic Sharia is a false claim.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: A false claim is beautiful.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: It is completely rejected because Islamic Sharia is based on absolute democracy, but Islamic Sharia does not judge people’s actions. Islamic Sharia is what judges them. The fact that people acted and left freedom behind is not a defect in Islam, but rather a defect in the people who exercised this freedom. They want to take for themselves authority, power and dominance, etc… The brother says that fanatical Muslims are the ones who insult Islam. No. When I hear a woman say that the Kaaba is not the Kaaba of the Arabs, but this Kaaba was built in the era of Abraham, so what does this do with the Arabs? The Kaaba and why they go around it, and when you say how do you accept the Black Stone, did you return to worshiping idols? It comes now and changes the legal foundations that are absolutely fixed, because there is definitive evidence of definite proof and definitive evidence of it. Omar himself looked and said, “If I had not seen the Messenger of God, may God bless him and grant him peace, kiss you, I would not have kissed you. And his mind, but the servant is asked: Did you respond because this is the word of God, or did you respond because this agrees with your mind and mood? The second matter is Sheikh Ali Abdel Razek, who did he disbelieve? Who did Sheikh Ali Abdel Razek disbelieve? The system of governance, politics, governance, etc., none of the Muslim scholars declared him a disbeliever at all.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Al-Azhar has not been brought to trial and dismissed.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: My honourable brother, leave the institutions, for you said to yourself that institutions do not rule over them.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: No, it is not the countries of Muslim scholars who hope, Doctor Faisal, who are Muslim scholars. Ok, tell me, who are Muslim scholars, if not those who are in Al-Azhar?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: Wait for me, who says I forgot that the honour of a woman is not in her lower half, but the honour of a woman in her upper half. Is not this said on TV screens?

Faisal Al-Qasim: Dr. Al-Saadawi, yes.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: What is this? The honour of a woman is in the upper part and not her lower part, reflecting the case. The case reflects the matter. The other matter is the purity of boys, why do you cut off the child on the seventh day? God, what our master Abraham is, purify him when he is an old man, you are arrogant against us in Islamic law with the immaculate child who is seven days old.

Egypt says that these are not the provisions of Islamic Sharia, and if these were left to speak without the scholars responding to them, our youth would have gone out and had incorrect ideas about Islam, who humiliate the Companions and humiliate distinguished scholars, such as Imam Abu Hanifa, Malik, Al-Shafi’i and Ahmed Ibn Hambal. They are in the graves. What are you, if you say, do not judge by the words of those in the graves, the role will come upon you as well, and the next generation will come and say, I do not judge by the words of those in the graves, so the purpose of this campaign is to educate young people in Islamic countries in a way other than the reality of Islam without them knowing Islam correctly. The second matter is to criticize those who rose and presented this heritage, so the nation that was based on these pillars has collapsed and thus the nation collapses and the communists can inherit Islam and put communism in the place of Islam. The secularists put their ideas in the place of Islam. They want to displace Islam. Did we not hear the president of America say and record that in a book, and the book is available, printed and translated into Arabic, and I read it with my own eyes? We have finished communism, and there is nothing left for us but Islam. This is stipulated in a book written by American president, Bush. He made a mistake and said that we are in a crusade. Meaning in a crusade, what does it mean? Islam must be abolished and the Christian religion replaced by its crosses with Islamic law. After the people and Muslims hear that, do they not think that this is intended? The destruction and elimination of Islamic law, and other matters are intended.

Faisal Al-Qasim: It is very nice. I heard this. I mean, you said what these thinkers can say to describe some sheikhs as strict or obstinate. In fact, they were not satisfied with these words. I mean, why do you want them to let go and have fun as they are, and you don't want anyone to confront them, and when someone confronts them, he becomes an infidel and a terrorist, and so on?

Abdel Rahim Ali: Dr. Faisal, before we entered here, Dr. Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh was talking about the benefits and the evils, and that everything is measured by the extent of its benefit to Muslims and the extent to which it causes corruption to Muslims. Is there anyone who said that the honour of women is in their upper half and not in their lower half? And who said that people should not kiss the Kaaba so that they do not return to idols. Is this a trend in the Arab region or the Islamic region, or are they individuals who do not exceed the fingers of one hand? Is confronting individuals who do not exceed the fingers of one hand the price of sacrificing the reputation of Islam, which respects freedom of opinion and belief? Will there be a price? I am surrounded by enemies on all sides. The nation is collapsing everywhere. There is no democracy in the Arab region and there are no men who bear real responsibilities and there is the enemy at the doors and the nation is besieged and instead of awakening this nation and focusing on its main pillars, I focus on a woman who said that the honour of women lies above or below. 

Faisal Al-Qasim: Ironically.

Abdel Rahim Ali: To be ironic, so to speak.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: The irony of who, oh?

Abdel Rahim Ali: The irony of the words itself is not from you.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Ah.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Two.. I..

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: He calls for irony at the words themselves.

Abdel Rahim Ali: From the words.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Or from those who attack me..

Abdel Rahim Ali: Those who say...

Faisal Al-Qasim: From those who attack like..

Abd al-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: They do not attack, no.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: No.. not those who consider this talk a reason that it destroys the pillars of the nation. This is a question for people's minds. I mean, one verse said the one above or the one below this. This is destroying the nation of Islam. This is a black calamity, if the nation of Islam is threatened because Nawal Al-Saadawi said that I do not know what the upper body and the lower body are. It remains a nation that does not deserve to live if Sharia law will destroy this talk. Ok, let us see what the wise men of Muslim scholars did. Sheikh Shaltout in his book 'Fatwas' clearly denied in an official fatwa the knowledge of the Prophet in the unseen and this is a belief the general Muslims are very terrible.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, he is not there.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: He denied that...

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, no, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: He denied that the Messenger had sensory miracles.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, Doctor… The Messenger … No, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: He said that the only miracle of the Messenger is the Qur’an.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, doctor, this is a position here.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: He denied…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Doctor..

Faisal Al-Qasim: I will give you the space, but after … I will give you the space, no doubt, but after the news briefing from the newsroom, goodbye.

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Sharia between diligence and the sword of atonement

Faisal Al-Qasim: Welcome again, dear viewers, we are with you live on the 'Opposite Direction' programme. You can vote on the topic of this episode. Do you think there is a suspicious campaign to undermine Islamic sanctities? By phone you can vote from inside Qatar on 900000 from all over the world 009749001900. The result is 96% say 'Yes' there is a campaign, 4% do not think there is a campaign. Online, the result is different. Seven thousand one hundred and ninety-eight people (86.7%) believe there is a campaign to undermine the sanctities, 13.3% 'No'. 

Abdel Rahim, I want to stay at the heart of the matter, away from the heritage, personalities, sanctities and symbols.

Abdel Rahim Ali: In the essence of the matter, the first, but in noting the task of the doctor, speaks that such simple things, one said, I do not know the honour of the mirror above.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, it is not simple, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: In my point of view, such things are seen as threatening the pillars of Sharia, and he says:

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: There are hundreds, hundreds of forms.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: He says that the citizen should not see this.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Shall I give her the freedom to say that?

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Does he not see this.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Is there freedom?

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: And silence, Sharia and religion have been steadfast for a thousand and four hundred years of wars like the Battle of the Camel and Siffin, and a major sedition, and men who invaded the city for three days and desecrated its sanctities and its men and companions, and men who killed the son of the daughter of the Messenger of God well. Islamic sects Qadariyyah, Jabriyyah, Mu’tazila, Murji’a, Shiites, Twelver, Imamate, Hanbali, all of these could not oppose them, who reached the limit of the greatness, the limit of the Divine Essence, the limit of the creation of the Qur’an, the limit of the Qur’an created or eternal. To this extent, the intellectual conflict has reached, which proves how enlightened these people were. Their chests were wide. Teach the whole world how difference is, how you give your opponent the right to say what he says even if he was talking about the Divine Essence in embodiment and even if he was talking about the creation of the Qur’an when he said al-Ma’mun and after him who is confident in the creation of the Qur’an and was killed in its wake. Two of the most important Muslim imams, Imam Ahmed bin Hanbal after his torture, and Imam Ahmed bin Nasr Al-Khuza’i, these people proved to us, despite all this that this Sharia is strong that God preserved this religion forever and ever so that someone comes to close the door of ijtihad.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: And the mind.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: He pulls the sword of atonement in our faces to prevent us from exposing these scholars who do not know anything about religion or in ijtihad, and they only want us to sanctify them and consider them above questioning. They want to elicit this sanctification from the Companions and the ancients. Let us see how the Companions were at the time of the Prophet. How did the heritage deal with the companions? How does the heritage deal with them?

"The differences that occurred between the ancient scholars were not intended to destroy the Sharia, but they were scholars on an equal footing in thought, belief, ijtihad and the foundations of ijtihad" Abdel Fattah al-Sheikh

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: If you would allow me to...

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: It is very nice.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: With the Companions, how did the Prophet deal with the Companions in all democracy and freedom, but to say that such nonsense...

Abdel-Fattah El-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, it's not trifles, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: This Sharia will be signed, and it will lead to components...the enemy is at the gates, and we are in dire need of freedom of opinion and freedom of expression.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, not the dispute.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: In order to unite our ranks…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: The old dispute.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: On a clear programme to confront these enemies, this is not permissible.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Very nice, Doctor. This is a word. I want you to respond sincerely, and do not distort it. Please go ahead.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I don’t know, Doctor Faisal. He says one example and two examples. I will not answer statistics from Arab countries which have gone out against Islamic law and said things about it.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: And on the sacred things.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: God has not sent down peace and about the sanctities in which God has not sent down any authority. It is the statistician who says one example that guides the Sharia. No, the differences that occurred between the ancient scholars were not intended to destroy Sharia, but they were scholars who presented equality in thought, belief, ijtihad, and the foundations of ijtihad that they inherited from the Companions, may God be pleased with them. As for those who speak today, they do not have foundations upon which they build these rulings, but rather they are whims and purposes that they want to say to the people and then pull the rug of Islamic Sharia from under the feet of the people. Did America not ask the rulers of the Muslims to avoid verses that are not related to Muslim worship and are not taught to our students in secondary schools or universities?

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Delete it from the curricula.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [continued]: To remove them from the curricula. Didn’t Israel demand in the Camp David Accords and others that they not be mentioned in the Egyptian media, nor in the Qur’an verses that speak of them as monkeys and pigs? That we not teach for our children {because you will find the people most hostile to those who believe are the Jews and those who idolize} the Jews came before the polytheists in their hostility to Islam? We left all of that. Then we complained and wept. By confiscating books, a television programme did this and asked me to intervene, so I challenged the secularism and communism that existed. I told him, I challenge you, that the Research Academy has confiscated a book because the mission of the Research Academy is not confiscation. The honourable Sunnah of the Prophet if an incorrect Sunnah is included in it. As for the rest of the research that we read in the Research Academy, it comes to us from official authorities from the state. They tell us what you think about this book. Does it agree with the thought of Islam? The professor said that the President of the Republic of Egypt on the night of power or the night of celebration that passed before he warned the scholars and I heard him with my ears. I warn you that you should be exposed to the constants of Islamic Sharia based on desires or requests because if we were exposed to the constants of Islamic Sharia then we would not even rely on it. Isn’t that responsible for a major country in the region? He says to the scholars, beware, be careful. Amr ibn al-Aas, who was subjected and insulted by the writer.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: You mean Okasha.

Abdel Fattah al-Sheikh [following up]: Okasha, Amr ibn al-Aas, this is a great companion. When Amr ibn al-Aas went to the Levant in one of the raids, he got up in the morning and did not find water to perform ablution with, because the Levant, as I told you before the programme, had heavy snow. He had to wash. He prayed with the people in tayammum, and one of the soldiers said to him, “This is democracy and freedom … one of the soldiers who cannot now address a junior policeman or is unable to address an officer of a small rank.” He said to him: “What?” He told him, “Contact us while you are on the side.” Nevertheless, he prayed behind him. When Amr Ibn Al-Aas returned, the man repeated this matter to the Messenger of God, may God's prayers and peace be upon him. Did you not find, Messenger of God, who you command against us except what he prays with us while he is junub (impure)? The Messenger of God became angry and anger appeared on his face, so he said to him, “Did you do that, Amr.” He said to him, “O Messenger of God, I was in a very cold country.” I was afraid that I would put cold water on my head, so I would get hot and die, and the Muslim army would break apart, and victory would turn into defeat, and God says in his book that the noble verse “except for what you were forced to do” turned the face of the Messenger of God from angry to laughing and smiling, so there was freedom, but you were the ones who robbed freedom from under the feet of Muslims, the Communists rule.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: And the neo-liberals.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [continued]: And the neo-liberals want to sit on chairs and then mock the nation to carry out what they ask for until the end. The Divine Essence that our brother spoke of, the Divine Essence, is not the Divine Essence. Uh, they differed about the Divine Essence. Important medicine. They differed whether it is true in Heaven or the end of it because the verses are tolerable and there was no suspicion of slander in Islam and they were on an equal footing. He had knowledge that would make him refute the words of the other man, but those who say this talk about Islamic Sharia.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Who are these people?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: There are many, and I do not want to be named.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Doesn't it mean what is their nature? I mean, they don't have the right, they don't have the ability?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: No, they have no right.

Faisal Al-Qasim: No ability.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Because there are specialties, I cannot perform surgery, and you, Your Honour, cannot make nets, and others cannot design architecture, but there are specific specialties that a person must learn in order to reach the pinnacle of glory in this specialty. I am one of those who give fatwas regarding the law of God.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: And in his characters and symbols.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [continued]: If I asked them about the pillars of prayer and what invalidates ablution, I assure you that they will not be able to mention the things that invalidate ablution.

Thought of reform, renewal and Western intervention

Faisal Al-Qasim: It is very nice. I heard this. In fact, I mean, I do not want to mention names, but there is a writer who wrote a long series about sacred things and sifting them. He is known to be drunk for 24 hours, meaning he was drenched in wine up to his ears.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Ah, this is the one who judges Islam.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: Our brother comes…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Ah, and he is discussing…

Faisal Al-Qasim: He wants to sift the sacred things, my brother, sift your mind first with drugs.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: This is freedom.

Faisal Al-Qasim: What is his name?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: This is freedom, oh…

Faisal al-Qasim [following up]: This is a very important word. Another person who has nothing to do with heritage, jurisprudence, history, and so on, as they say, writes series for dancers, comes and wants to criticize the Companions, what do you say?

Abdel Rahim Ali: Dear Sir, first of all, I will agree to a very important need, especially the idea of ​​renewal and the idea of ​​reform. They say that they are American ideas, then they say that these people who claim…

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Not renewal and reform. I did not say renewal and reform. I said American ideas to omit aspects of the Holy Qur’an and the Prophetic Sunnah. They are not taught to their children. Do not teach them anything but prayer, almsgiving and fasting.

"The Saudi Dialogue Conference presented a very important study showing a large number of jurisprudential fallacies related to hatred of the other and the prohibition of dealing with him" Abdel Rahim Ali

Abdel Rahim Ali: At the Saudi Dialogue Conference, the second round of the Saudi Dialogue, Dr. Abdel Aziz Al-Qasim presented a very important study on religious education in Saudi schools.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Before that, but I talked about how we deal with heritage, how do we deal with the Companions?

Abdel Rahim Ali: We will say this…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Look, Professor, we are not exposed to any kind of education in any country.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Because these are facts presented by the Dialogue Conference.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, they are not facts, any facts.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: The one who is sponsored by the Crown Prince.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: So be it.

Abdel Rahim Ali: The important thing is this study was published in the Cairo newspaper in three episodes and was published in a large number of parties. They took some of its provisions in this conference, talking about a number of jurisprudential fallacies related to hatred of the other and the prohibition of dealing with him, and it talks about that Arab governments.

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: The Qur’an contains this.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: The Arab governments in the entire region…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, regret it, it is based on Quranic verses…

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Do not apply Sharia and its governments are infidels…

Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Kill all the polytheists.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: All of this... this is while we are facing enemies on all sides.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: I mean, we leave our religion for the sake of integrity.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Two of the first demanded the reform of Al-Azhar Al-Sharif and the reform of its affairs.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: But so that this is not our topic, by God, let us discuss the matter.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Is the reform of basic education not Imam Muhammad Abdo?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Who?

Abdel Rahim Ali: We are the first Muslim imams and scholars.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Imam Muhammad Abdo did not tackle the legal sciences, but rather Imam Muhammad Abdo added other sciences.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: They were exposed to the idea of ​​reform and the idea of ​​renewal for a long time.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Very nice, but let's talk about it.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Two heritage companions.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: No, you did not answer my question on a topic that is, my brother, these people.

Abdel Rahim Ali: You told me about the question.

Faisal Al-Qasim: No, this is what made you look out of it. You will talk about it.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Please.

Faisal Al-Qasim: The subject is that he is one of those people to take advantage of the Companions, to take advantage of the heroes of history, so that they receive sacred things.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Dear Sir.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Amr ibn al-Aas.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: In order for them to obtain symbols, I spoke, I mean, someone wants to sift the sanctities while he is drunk.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: The seconds of every Muslim citizen.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal Omar Ibn Al-Aas.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute...

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: He lives on earth as an Islamic, bears witness that there is no god but God and that Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and believes in the resurrection and the Day of Judgment, and believes that the Messenger is true and the Qur’an is a truth.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: In the affairs of Muslims, a history.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Or he was present.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No history.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: In all persons, the companions, my virtuous friend, are human beings.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No history.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute, I hope you record it. This is an important point in all the Companions.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: They make mistakes and are right, and there are things that have happened.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Who are the Companions?

Diligence and the possibility of right and wrong

Abdel Rahim Ali: The Companions are human beings, and the Messenger himself said: I am nothing but a human and a messenger. Am I only a human and a messenger, my brother. The Messenger gave good tidings to the Companions. They are human beings who make mistakes and are right, but they are among them who the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, limited. Among them were those who imposed his limits on him.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Hey, sir, the person who commits adultery.

Abdel-Rahim Ali [following up]: And not only the adulteress Hassan bin Thabet, his poem in the accident of al-Ifk, is the same as slandering among them who committed what is called in our modern history.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: He did not interfere with Sharia.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: With the felony of high treason, when Hatib bin Abi Balta’ah informed the infidels of Quraysh of the Prophet’s advance in the conquest of Makkah, and Omar said to him, “We will show them nothing but the sword.” He said to him: “Do you want it to be said that Muhammad kills his companions?”

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Because it contains a revelation that came down from heaven.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: When he said...when he came...when Abdullah bin Abi bin Salul, the chief hypocrite, reached what he had reached, he said, "If we go to Madinah, we will get out of it the most honourable, the humiliated, and it spreads among the people." He said, “It is a good permission, and God defends him.” The entire Qur’an is full of this. The Messenger did nothing with him. Rather, he prayed over him and shrouded him, and the verse was revealed: “If you ask forgiveness for them seventy times.” May God forgive them.. I would not ask forgiveness for them. These are the morals of prophecy, and these are the morals that the Messenger, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, commanded us to follow at all times and in every tribe. These are not the morals of the jurists. These are the morals of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him. Al-Hassan is extremely beautiful, but when the Holy Qur’an mentions the historical method in dealing with history, it says in the Battle of Al-Ahzab, for example: {When they came to you from above you and from below you, and when the eyes were swept away and the hearts reached the great perseverance}.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Well, what is the matter with this verse?

Abdel-Rahim Ali [follow -up]: The two are two when it comes in the Battle of Hunayn {and [even] on the day of Hunayn, when your great number pleased you, but it did not avail you at all, and the earth was confining for you with its vastness; then you turned back, fleeing}.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: This is God who speaks.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: God taught us, the Qur’an exists so that we can reflect on it and understand it and implement its method. We do not say that God said what I am saying, so he said…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, you measure people against God.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: The Qur’an remains. He said, “Two come, let us see the heritage. This paper came from who?” Al-Waqidi, Al-Balazmi, Al-Tabari, Imamate and Politics, the Unique Contract of Ibn Abd Rabbo, Muruj Al-Dhahab, Tarikh Ibn Al-Asir, Ibn Khaldun, the visible stars…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: All this money is complete.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: What did all of these people say? And Amr bin Al-Aas was dismissed by Othman bin Affan, and Abdullah bin Saad bin Abi Saih Al-Hamari became the guardian, and that was the beginning of evil between Amr and Othman. This is Dhul-Nourin, the husband of my daughter, the Messenger of God, al-Hayyi ibn al-Hayyi, what? In his heart and in himself, there was a grudge against Othman, and he started turning people against him.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Who said this?

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: It was a reason...

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Isn't it a human who says?

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: I would like you to write it down, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Al-Dhahabi sees in the scale of aggression that Amr asked Muawiyah, do you think that we disagreed with Ali for the grace of us over him? When I read these words, the Muslim youth, when they read in the books of heritage and interpretation and the books we rely on, is not this aggression that we rely on?

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: First, doctor…

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: Why am I asking you a question, why was the person who said this not declared a disbeliever?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: No, no.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Well, for a minute, there is talk, but sir, when you see a writer talking about Amr Ibn Al-Aas in words.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: And the owner of this unique contract is a verse, it has more than this.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: In words, he says that this character.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Who is the owner of this unique contract?

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Ibn Abd Rabbo has this limit.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: O people, he tells you that he is a bad and base character, and so on.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Yes, he is the owner of the unique contract. Who is the owner of the unique contract?

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: He is not talking about the doctrine of Osama Anwar Okasha.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal, please take the floor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: But I was informed that he talks about these behaviours when they help in the killing of the third Caliph al-Hayyi ibn al-Hayyi, the husband of the daughter of the Messenger of God, and then she goes to collect the price from Othman ibn Affan.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Very nice…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal, I want to respond to him.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: What do you call these two when...

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute..

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: I want to respond to that.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: The speech is very valiant, the slander that he speaks about, and Al-Hassan bin Ali bin Abi Talib says to Amr bin Al-Aas, “Beware of me, for you are an abomination, and we are the pure house.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: There is talk about his mother too. What about a nation?

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: His mother is here.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute, I'll give you the space.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: We do not leave it that way.

Abdel Rahim Ali: His mother was called Nabga, and she was sold in the Okaz Market, and the Fakihs bought her.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Or who?

Abdel Rahim Ali: Umm Amr ibn al-Aas, this is not an insult to him as a person whose fault is not his mother’s fault, but that...

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: What is the genius?

Abdel Rahim Ali: The genius and she was one of the owners of the red flags, the owners of the red flags are known for their expression in Arabic or in the colloquial language, here these are heritage books I will not say… these are heritage books, my friend, these are heritage books…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Ok, very nice.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Allow me to stay.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Why, brother Faisal, did not make these people a disbeliever, why when it was issued by a writer at a time… These words were said, by the way, at a time when the Islamic nation owned the land from its east to its west… Why when these words were said…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: No, Dr. Faisal, it's time, Dr. Faisal.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Who is today's writer?

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: The world rises and does not sit still.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: We are persecuted and accused before the whole world of being against…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor Faisal, there is no truth now, so I hope to respond to these words.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: O people, please, sir.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: This is a good word.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: I am responding to this.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Sir, you have to speak now. It is time to reconsider the many myths. Everyone has the right to say that ... The West did not advance until the West reconsidered the sacred things.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Oh, Dr. Faisal.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Please.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: There are things in Islamic law that are definitive because the evidence is established.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: What are you, Doctor?

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Like it, there is no shame in telling you the example, that you are a scholar.

Abdel Rahim Ali: I don't say anything, just to respond to it.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Prayer, zakat, fasting, fornication, fornication.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Please respond to these serious points, please.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: The prohibition of alcohol.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Exactly.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Prohibition of usury, theft, all of these…Islamic law…

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Osama Anwar Okasha said something about D.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I have nothing to do with Osama Anwar Okasha now.

Abdel Rahim Ali: You are not the one who is talking.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I am speaking now about the first issue.

Abdel Rahim Ali: What are you saying there are constants.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: There are provisions in Islamic law that no one is allowed to touch.

Faisal Al-Qasim: But please respond to his dangerous words?

“In Islam there are matters that are definite, and no one can change them or disagree on them, and the scope of ijtihad is in matters that may lead to disagreement.” Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: These are the words of what is not a high-stakes talk, is it, these are the basic matters that no one can touch because they are definitely established in the Qur’an and the Sunnah as well. The consensus of Muslims among the Mujtahids and the Companions has been established on them. It is the closest or touches it, but the scope of ijtihad in the possible matters is in the verses that are tolerable, and the Qur’an revealed in it verses that are tolerable.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Doctor, we have left the topic. We are talking about prayer, fasting, and zakat on our eyes and on our heads, all countries?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Doctor, this is not the same issue, Doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Well, tell us, what are the things that are firm and cut off, and which we are not allowed to touch?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: What is it that I attacked you?

Abdel Rahim Ali: What you said now from the first six that said above and below…

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Listen to my words.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: And the second six, there is no need for all of this.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Listen, my words remain. The Messenger said about the Companions, Aya and Amr ibn al-Aas are my great companions. My companions are like stars. Which of them are you required to be guided? So, this is a testimony from the Messenger. Some of the Messenger’s companions testified to them that they were heralds of Paradise.

Abdel-Rahim Ali: He is the messenger who preached heaven to Amr Ibn al-Aas… Amr Ibn al-Aas preached heaven.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: What are you worth to slander at Amr Ibn Al-Aas? You are not worth the nails of Amr Ibn Al-Aas, Amr Ibn Al-Aas who besieged Jerusalem until it converted to Islam and then called our master Omar.

Abdel-Rahim Ali: Doctor, we do not want to transfer the matter to Amr Ibn al-Aas, because we are all the sons of these people. We are talking about freedom of opinion and belief that reached in the books of heritage and in the ancients… and among the ancients it reached a very important degree.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute, my brother. Just a minute. An important point, Mr. Ali, for God's sake.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: No, these are the books that speak.

Faisal Al-Qasim: No, this point is important.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: What am I talking about, oh, these books that are spoken of by Israeli women are full, and the interpretation of the Qur’an contains many Israeli women who are filled, because the Jews have combined things in the books of heritage in order to weaken the Islamic nation.

Abdel-Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Well, what we have to say, we are counting on eh.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: And they dispersed among them.

Abdel-Rahim Ali [interrupting]: I told you 20 books of my heritage.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: Let me be one scholar, let me be one scholar.

Abdel Rahim Ali: I am telling you 20 books of my heritage.

Faisal Al-Qasim [continued]: The American defence, with what the new extremists in the United States said against Islam and against the sanctities and against such…

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Sir, we had a chance to speak.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: The truth is clear as the eye of the sun.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Sir, we have the opportunity to speak.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Please.

“Islamic history, the Noble Messenger and the Prophet’s state did not know how to block opinion, no matter how harsh it was, and this is credited to Islam” Abd al-Rahim Ali

Abdel Rahim Ali: First, I said in the same text that the Islamic history and the Noble Messenger, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him, and the state of the Prophet did not know the confinement of opinion, no matter how harsh it is, and this counts against Islam. Two, I said that..

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: He is credited with Islam.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Credits to Islam.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: To Islam.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: I said that according to the equation of interests and corruptions, this attack is from a few individuals, you call them a current, and I count them on the fingers of one hand, and it will not affect these people first, if we put it within the framework of freedom of opinion, expression and caliphate and we did not confront it with this intensity that calls for the infidelity of some Killing them is a response to them and allows young people like the one who is currently speaking to grab a penknife and go to kill one of them, then the nation returns to its wounds inside to debate with the infidel and the non-disbeliever while the enemy is standing at the doors. Against the external enemy, or should we turn to the inside, and who becomes a fifth column, who calls for this, or who calls for settling accounts with the inside?

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Very nice, but a simple question, a question because you give me the space to ask you.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: The scholars are the inheritors of the prophets.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Ok, minute.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: I just want to complete what you don't interrupt my thoughts.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Ok… the last thing is the inheritors of the prophets.

Abdel Rahim Ali: The scholars are the inheritors of the prophets. This is advice for the scholars and not for the nation. It is not compulsory for him to be the chief of scholars unless he applies in himself and in his morals the morals of prophecy.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Mahoush is a scientist.

Abdel Rahim Ali: A world is not a scientist.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Mahoush is a scientist.

Abdel Rahim Ali: A scientist with a doctorate at the university and writing books.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: No, no, I am not a scholar.

Abdel Rahim Ali: A corrupt scientist, a thief scientist, a scientist who writes letters to his students as we hear and takes money from them, a Pifti scholar, as the brother said, is for the benefit of the state, a scholar who issues edicts for the benefit of the Americans. Didn’t a large front of scholars disband in favour of the American presence on Saudi soil and the Iraq war? How do you call these people? Scholars and how are these heirs of the prophets? The issue here.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: There are no scholars.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Talking about the left and the right.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Just a minute…

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: O Professor Abd al-Rahim, there are no scholars.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: Wait, but please, doctor, because you are saying something dangerous that must be answered.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute.

Abdel Rahim Ali: He must respond to it.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: these are not scholars.

Faisal Al-Qasim: But, people, people, a question.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Not scholars.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute, folks.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Who said?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I am the one who says.

Faisal Al-Qasim: I have many interventions.

Abdel Rahim Ali: Scholars are elected, but they are scholars.

Islam and support for freedom of expression

Faisal al-Qasim [interrupting]: Oh people, by God, just a simple question and answer me because it is time for us. Ok, why do you take these people for their protection of their religion, heritage and symbols, and we saw when a movie was shown in Europe and America entitled The Last Temptation of Christ, some Christians burned cinemas about Reel her?

Abdel Rahim Ali: OK.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Ok, so why is it permissible for this?

Abdel Rahim Ali: These people have different circumstances. We are a persecuted nation. We are a nation that is meant to be bad, as the doctor said. We are a nation surrounded by enemies on all sides.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Look, doctor.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: We are a nation that lives its weakest moments.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Professor Abdel Rahim.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: We leave all this.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Ok, very nice.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Professor Abdel Rahim.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: We are talking about a woman who takes off and wears one. She does not know whether she wears a veil above or below.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Othman Khamis, people.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Professor Abdul Rahim.

Abdel Rahim Ali [continued]: O people, Islam is much greater than this.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Hey guys, just a minute.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: O Professor Abdel Rahim.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: Just a minute, Othman Khamis.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Not for one minute, but for half a minute.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: Just a minute...just a minute, Othman Khamis Al-Kuwait, please, sir.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Not half a minute, but this moment.

Faisal Al-Qasim: I will give you the space… Othman Khamis. Please, sir. I would like to turn down your television, if you would be so kind.

Othman Khamis: May the peace and mercy of God be upon you.

Faisal Al-Qasim: And peace be upon you, sir.

Othman Khamis: May God bless you with all the best.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Hurray.

Othman Khamis: May God, Blessed and Exalted be He, make your evening happy, and I really thank you for the good efforts you are doing, God Almighty.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Thank you, sir.

Othman Khamis: My intervention is very short, I want to say first that we mean Muslim co-workers, we do not claim to be the companions of Muhammad, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him…

Faisal Al-Qasim: Peace be upon him.

Othman Khamis: They are infallible, rather we say that they are human beings who make mistakes and make mistakes, but with this we do not accept defamation except with proof of the isnad. God, the Blessed and Most High, has proved to us their justice. He said: “God is well pleased with the believers when they pledge allegiance to you.” Blessed and Exalted be He. {Muhammad is the Messenger of God, and those with him are harsh against the infidels, merciful among themselves.}

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: The former… the former.

Othman Khamis [continued]: And there are many other things in the Book of God, the Blessed and Exalted, and the uncle of the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him and his family, in his saying: Do not insult my companions. God's blessings and peace be upon him.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Peace be upon him.

Othman Khamis: People embraced Islam and Amr believed, so the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, singled him out as safe, may God be pleased with him. However, we do not claim that he is infallible, nor any other of the companions, as Professor Abdel Rahim said in that there are those who committed adultery or betrayal, such as Hatib bin Abi Balta’ah and others. 

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: This is because, what is this?

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Proof of rulings.

Othman Khamis [following up]: We do not claim that they are infallible.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Because of the ruling.

Othman Khamis [continued]: But we also claim that they are the best of human beings after the prophets, because God modified them and the Prophet, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, amended them, and also what we know of their conditions, may God be pleased with them. We need a chain of narrators, we have the Holy Qur’an.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Sir, I have not stabbed you.

Othman Khamis [Continued]: And our chain of transmission is the established authentic hadiths on the authority of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, while Dr. Abdel Rahim infers the unique contract and infers the meadows of gold, the balance of moderation, the shining stars, al-Waqidi, al-Tabari, Imamate and politics. This is in the companions of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, as well as the author of the unique contract. The balance of moderation is originally intended for collecting weak hadiths…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Thank you very much, I got the idea.

Othman Khamis: I don't wait.

Faisal Al-Qasim: From Damascus, we will involve Mr. Al-Ayham Salih, please, sir.

Ayham Salih - Damascus: Peace be upon you.

Faisal Al-Qasim: And peace be upon you, sir.

Elham Salih: The idea you are talking about, the main idea for me is whether we guarantee freedom of expression or not? All modern constitutions in the world guarantee human freedom of expression, and it is the right of any person to express his opinion, whatever this opinion may be. Suppression of freedom of opinion and expression for citizens in Islamic and non-Islamic countries alike...I mean, a campaign by Islamists against one of the basic rights of man. Of course, Islamists are not the only ones trying to stand in the way of freedom of expression. These attempts are a continuation of similar attempts that resemble the Inquisition in the Middle Ages and resemble Also laws that suppress freedom.. Laws that suppress freedom of expression for citizens in dictatorial countries. Regarding the situation we are currently discussing, I do not believe that Islamists are defending Islam as a religion or as a creed when they launch their campaign against opinion or expression or against people who exercise their human right to express their opinion. Islam was subjected to many attempts in the past to distort its image, starting with the attempts of some companions to falsify hadiths in the days of Othman and passing through all kinds of corruption in the era of prosperity of the state called Islamic And up to the current era, during more than a thousand and four hundred years, Islam has gone through a large number of adversities and it is still continuing as a religion and as a belief to this day and will continue to continue like other religions and beliefs, and therefore I think that there is no fear for Islam..

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Thank you very much, I got the idea.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Two small words…

Which one is Saleh [continued]: Nor on the sanctities of Muslims from a word, book or article…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Thank you very much, I got the idea.

Elham Salih [continued]: I wonder what was behind the campaign launched by some Islamists.

Faisal Al-Qasim: I would have given you time, but time is running out.

Abdel-Fattah El-Sheikh [interrupting]: Two small words

Faisal Al-Qasim: Thank you very much, Doctor Minute.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Professor Abdel Rahim. You are.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Doctor, you are frankly, I mean, let me ask you how many questions, and it seems that you, I mean, accept some of what Mr. Abdel Rahim said…

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: I am not a Muslim by what he said: No. No.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Just a minute.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: No, why are you saying this facilitation to me?

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: Just a minute.. Doctor, His Excellency the former President of Al-Azhar University.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: Yes.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Freeing our mind from myths, sacred texts, and myths associated with them is an indispensable prelude to our exit from the tunnel of backwardness. And what is wrong with us…

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: I did not answer this, Doctor Faisal.

Faisal Al-Qasim [following up]: How do you respond?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I answered this saying that there are in Islamic Sharia constants that are not acceptable..

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: You just have a point.

“Muslims do not prevent freedom, as it is guaranteed to everyone in the Sharia, but what is forbidden is the infringement of religion” Abdel Fattah Al-Sheikh

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [following up]: It cannot be touched by anyone, and there are myths. These myths were referred to by scholars and said that this does not agree with the foundations of Islamic law. Professor Abdel Rahim has a small reproach to him. He says that we are now in a revolution and agitation, and the nation is surrounded by enemies, etc., and we avoid this. Disagreements aside until we win. How do we win if we help God, and God in His Qur’an says {If you help God, He will help you} By what do you help God? Applying his law, help God, eh? By proving its correct rulings, do you support God, eh? By raising our children the correct religious education that makes them stand on solid ground, Muslims did not prevent freedom, the brother in the last conversation did not prevent freedom, freedom is guaranteed to everyone in Islamic Sharia, but they prevented you… your attack on religion…

Faisal Al-Qasim: And your attack on the sanctities.

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh: On the sacred.

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: From whose point of view, Doctor?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: It is not from freedom.

Abdel Rahim Ali: I mean, from whose point of view, does it mean an attack? When do we judge Dr. Faisal?

Abdel-Fattah al-Sheikh [interrupting]: Doctor, here I am telling you.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Hey guys, time is up, but let me.

Abdel Rahim Ali [following up]: When do we judge Dr. Faisal for violating the sanctities?

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: I don't know. I'm going to tell you about two examples.

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Doctor, just a minute... Doctor, I have the last half of a minute. I want two sentences from here and here, but for a minute.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: But if you would be so kind as to say, I agree with Abdel Rahim in most of what he said, no, uh.

Faisal Al-Qasim: Good rejected it, OK. The last thing you think is that there is no campaign?

Abdel Rahim Ali: The real campaign is not from others, but from within the Islamic political trend that seeks to form a state and from within the extremists. I specifically did not speak of any negativity about the Companions, but I said that these books indicated that the era of the Prophet and the Islamic era had the greatest degree of freedom of thought...

Faisal Al-Qasim: The last word is yours.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: The man has increased his goodness. The last man told you, what are these books in them?

Faisal Al-Qasim: The last word is yours.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh: The last word for me means, for example…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Two sentences.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: Yes, two sentences when someone comes and says in Lebanon, we celebrate Abu Lahab, we set up an idol for him, and we celebrate it every year…

Abdel Rahim Ali [interrupting]: Is this foundation, doctor? It threatens Islam.

Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh [following up]: Why did he say? Because he actually supported God, what is the act? He insisted on unbelief, so he was… Is this…

Faisal Al-Qasim [interrupting]: Thank you very much. Dear viewers, I would have liked to give it to you… My honourable viewers, I mean, I would have liked you to sum it up quickly, dear viewers. All we have to do is thank our guests, Prof. Dr. Abdel-Fattah Al-Sheikh, former president of Al-Azhar University, and Mr. Abdel-Rahim Ali, head of the Islam Centre and Democracy.